How do English-Only Classes Affect Spanish-Speaking Students?
Hannity & Colmes
GUESTS: Angelo Amador, Ron Unz
COLMES: Welcome back to HANNITY AND COLMES. When California's Proposition 227 banned bilingual education in public schools two years ago, many educators expected the worst, fearing the state's one and a half million Spanish speaking children would flounder when thrown into English only classes. Instead, they flourished and new standardized test results show that the students' scores increased, sometimes by more than 50 percent. They credit other reforms such as smaller classes, more funding for the success of the students. So, did Proposition 227 really made the grade or will immigrant students suffer in the long run? Joining us, Ron Unz the co-author of Proposition 227 and Chairman of "English for the Children." In Washington, D.C. Angelo Amador, education policy analyst with the Mexican-American Legal Defense & Education Fund. Good to have you both with us. Mr. Amador, how do you dispute those statistics? Don't we see an increase in the way the kids are, how well they're doing? ANGELO AMADOR, MEXICAN AMERICAN LEGAL DEFENSE & EDUCATION FUND: Well, the test scores did go up but what they forget to mention is actually the gap between the general number of students and the Latino students have actually increased as opposed to decrease. In... COLMES: What do you mean by the gap? What do you mean by that? AMADOR: Well, the gap is the scores. All of the scores went up. All the scores went up also for the students that were in bilingual education programs. But the gap between the general score, the average scores and the scores of limited English proficiency students, the score is, there's a bigger gap now (UNINTELLIGIBLE). COLMES: And Ron, there are all these other factors -- smaller classes, more money being put into these classes, influx of money into the system. There's a shift to progressive phonics teaching in California. You can't discount those reasons for the increase in how well they're doing as well. RON UNZ, "ENGLISH FOR THE CHILDREN": Some of those factors are very important, in particular phonics, getting rid of whole language, I think, played a huge role. On the other hand, all the theories to support bilingual education also support whole language. So you've got both of those reforms are in the state. COLMES: And also, there are waivers. Some of these kids get waivers so they don't have to do English only so, you know, that's got to be factored in, which it really hasn't, right? UNZ: And that's the most important factor because when you look at those students who stayed in bilingual programs, they're doing much, much worse. Their test scores increased minimally compared to students... AMADOR: That is not correct. HANNITY: Hey, Ron, first of all, they can't admit they're wrong because you know what? There were those of us that supported you. You were on this program back in '98. UNZ: Sure. HANNITY: I remember almost being accused of being racist by supporting Prop 227, all sorts of allegations, these kids will never learn, it's a disservice... AMADOR: Actually, one thing that I want to mention is that there are scores in at least 10 schools that have a significant number of bilingual students that did better than schools with English only students, the English only immersion program. HANNITY: But Angelo, the study is very clear. These kids are flourishing in spite of predictions of doom and gloom that were made on this very program just a couple of years ago, the critics, the pundits, all of them were wrong and Ron was right because the results are staggering. AMADOR: But they get... HANNITY: Sir, I mean this is overwhelming, the success of English immersion. AMADOR: We are not against English immersion programs. Actually, as you were saying earlier on the previous segment, we're in favor of having choice. We think that the parents, the educators who have choices how to better educate children. This is something that you just said yourself less than 10 minutes ago. HANNITY: But the reason why I wasn't surprised is because we already had some information that we could go on prior to you putting 227 into full effect, the immersion proposal in effect, because the Labor Department had a study that showed that immigrants learn English more rapidly under that environment when they're less, when they use less of their native language around them. And so we already knew that it would work. It was just a matter of, you know, you taking the heat... AMADOR: Well, actually, but it's not working in... HANNITY: Hang on a second, Angelo. AMADOR: OK. HANNITY: You taking the heat but what was obviously you're helping these kids, as we knew you would. You really deserve a lot of credit for taking a lot of heat for things knowing you would be right here. UNZ: And it wasn't just that. I mean look, throughout all of American history, immigrants have come to the United States and their children have learned English very easily. Furthermore, in California the only group of immigrant children who were given the alleged benefits of bilingual education were Latino immigrant children. All the other groups were taught English. And by coincidence, all the other groups did better in school than Latino immigrants did. COLMES: We're going to give Mr. Amador a chance to respond in just a moment. We've got to take a quick break. Mr. Amador, you'll get a chance to responsible when we get back. The debate continues. Please stay with us on HANNITY AND COLMES. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HANNITY: Welcome back to HANNITY AND COLMES. I'm Sean Hannity. All right, Mr. Amador, as I pointed out here, these students are flourishing in spite of these predictions of doom and gloom. You want to still offer the kids choice, bilingual education as opposed to what is now clearly working, this immersion, English immersion. AMADOR: Yeah, it's not clearly working. It's not clearly working. We think... HANNITY: Sir, I can hold up. Students flourish under English immersion. They're flourishing. They are doing well. It's already in. We've known that this is working. AMADOR: No, actually everybody, all of the test scores increased, also including those of the students that were in bilingual education programs... HANNITY: All right, but the Labor Department in their study showed that this was the best way to do things and my question to you, sir, is this, language, English is the language of opportunity, success, prosperity in America. Why don't we just take a year, these kids that need it, and it's mandated by law that they get this education, this immersion, why don't we get these kids up to speed, we get them into the school system, we get that little hurdle out of the way so they never have to worry about it and they can be fully acclimated to American life? AMADOR: We believe that English is very important. We believe English is the language of opportunity in the United States and actually internationally as well. But another thing is that we don't want kids to fall behind. We want kids to have a well rounded education... HANNITY: At most it would... AMADOR: ... in mathematics, in science, in any other subjects in the language of computers... HANNITY: At most it's a year, right, Ron? At most we're talking about a year. UNZ: Well, what's interesting is there's actually one district where the students did fall behind in this last year. AMADOR: Right. UNZ: Their test scores, that's about the only district that their test scores went down rather than up for the immigrant students. And that's Vista (ph), which kept its bilingual programs. HANNITY: Kept the bilingual program. AMADOR: But again... UNZ: The test scores went down. AMADOR: There's 10... HANNITY: That's it. There you go. AMADOR: There's 10 schools which have a significant bilingual education program that did better in English, math and science than in English and math than did the... HANNITY: Ron, how long does it take, immersion? How long? UNZ: It takes about a year, less than a year. HANNITY: About a year. Less than a year. UNZ: These are young children... (CROSSTALK) back. COLMES: Right. He's making the point that test scores are up for even those students not in a bilingual education program. How do you account for that? UNZ: Well, the thing is, again, there were a lot of good reforms in California, getting rid of whole language, shifting over to phonics, but it would be interesting... COLMES: And all these other reforms could be equally responsible? UNZ: Well, but the interesting thing is the test scores of the immigrant students rose more rapidly than those of the other students and the immigrant test scores... AMADOR: That is not correct. Actually... UNZ: No, the immigrant. AMADOR: Actually... UNZ: Excuse me. COLMES: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that, Mr. Amador? UNZ: Excuse me. The immigrant test scores rose most rapidly in the districts that got rid of bilingual... AMADOR: It definitely has (UNINTELLIGIBLE). UNZ: ... and they rose little, if at all, in the districts that kept bilingual. COLMES: Mr. Amador, do you concur with that? AMADOR: The gap -- no, definitely not. I cannot because it's incorrect. The gap increased in all grade in math and English, in, except for seventh and ninth grade, all of the other grades. (CROSSTALK) COLMES: Let's, Mr. Unz, we keep hearing this issue about school choice and the ability to choose. That's a big debate, as well. Should a parent be able to choose whether he wants his kid or her kid in a bilingual class or not? Should a parent have that choice? UNZ: To some extent yes and that's in the initiative. What the initiative allows is it says parents who want to place their children in a bilingual program can apply for a waiver to do so. There are tens of thousands of children still in bilingual in California. In some cases, they've been pressured to be in it by the teachers and administrators. But by and large the number of students in bilingual is down about 90 percent. COLMES: But those kids have done better, too, haven't they? UNZ: No, they haven't, unfortunately. COLMES: They have not done better? UNZ: They have not done better. COLMES: Mr. Amador, have they... AMADOR: No, again, all of the scores went up. The kids in bilingual education programs have also gone up. UNZ: In this school they went down. AMADOR: The waivers that he's talking about, again, it's an application for a wavier. That doesn't mean you obtain the -- you are granted the waiver to put your kid in the program that you, as a parent, want to place your child in because you believe it's a better program. UNZ: And that's the problem. That's the problem. In Vista, which had a strong allegedly bilingual program, they granted thousands of waivers and Vista, which is the one district that tried most to keep it bilingual, their test scores went down last time for their individuals. COLMES: What do you do with a child who's not learning, who's in an English only program and still isn't getting it? What do you do then? UNZ: Well, you keep them in the program a bit longer. And if it doesn't work, then maybe they can apply for a wavier. COLMES: Mr. Amador... AMADOR: Or they drop out. HANNITY: We're just out of time. AMADOR: Or they drop out and we lost that child and that's not what we want. We want the child to move on. We want the child to have a well rounded education. HANNITY: Mr. Amador, thank you for being with us. AMADOR: Thank you, Hannity. HANNITY: Mr. Unz, I'm going to give you credit. Congratulations. UNZ: OK, thanks a lot. HANNITY: You were on the cutting edge on this and I give you a lot of credit for that. Stay tuned, we have more powerful debate tomorrow night, 9:00 P.M. Eastern. Thank you for being with us tonight. We hope you'll join us tomorrow night. Thanks for being on board. |